Podcast Transcript:  

[00:02:00] Sean Steele: G'day everybody, and welcome back to the ScaleHQ Podcast. I'm your host, Sean Steele. Welcome back to our regular listeners and to anybody joining us for the first time, so excited to have you here. And thank you very much for spending your time with us today, with myself and Ryan Trainor, which actually just baffles me, Ryan, that we haven't spent more time together, given we've been in and around the sort of business and education investment circles for so long, but everybody who I know knows you, but somehow, we didn't get to know each other. But for the audience, Ryan, you are a Serial Entrepreneur. I don't know whether you like that badge, but you know, you built a lot of education businesses. You've been in esports and like in the last 15 years alone, from what I understand, you founded Franklin Scholar, which was a broad sort of private vocational brand. You founded, or I think maybe Co-Founded Fortress Australia, like an esports and entertainment business with physical sites in Sydney and Melbourne, CG Spectrum, which was an education business around, or is, around films and games and creative industries. Then Adventus.io, which is a SaaS marketplace for international students trying to find, providers and making some big improvements there. And then I saw a month ago that you launched your new podcast called Trainable, which I'm definitely going to ask you more about towards the end of this. First of all, how are you? And second of all, did I miss any key ones during that period or did I get them right?

[00:03:18] Ryan Trainor: It's just, well, I had hair and that's probably what's probably lost all of it along the way, Sean, but no, great to be here, mate. And no, it's been quite a journey from, yeah, actually the funny thing is, it's kind of thinking about it, you take as trip down memory lane, but the reality is I've never worked for anybody since being young as well. But amongst all of that, there's some wins and losses along the way. So, it definitely hasn't been all smooth sailing as well, mate.

[00:03:43] Sean Steele: Yeah. I definitely want to get into that. And I mean, that really, for me is the context of our conversation today. Number one, I'm really interested to understand, you know, many people do manage to build a company. Well, many people is the wrong vernacular. Not many people actually managed to build and scale past eight figures. I mean, if you just think about the stats in Australia alone, you got 2.6 million businesses, 10 percent of them are over a million dollars, and it's like 2.3 percent are above 10 million in revenue. So, it's a very small percentage that actually can build an eight-figure business, but not many people succeed in doing it over and over and over and building it in such a way that allows them to step back. But I know many Founders who've got that, who would love to do that. They'd love to build their business in such a way that once they're… It's sort of outgrowing them or they no longer want to be operationally involved. They can step back, they can install management and then potentially they can invest some time in the next chapter or investments or whatever. But the fact that you've done this numerous times in actually a quite a short period tells me there's some things that you've learned along the way about principles that have helped you kind of not only build a business that's succeeding, but actually build it in such a way that you're able to step back probably earlier than most people, I think, build the opportunity to. And so, I'd love to unpack some of that. And then also, some of the consequences along the way, because as we talked a little bit about offline. It's not always all roses, it's not all sunshine and daffodils and it has some real impact. So, is that okay for you for a bit of us today?

[00:05:10] Ryan Trainor: Yeah, absolutely mate, sounds fantastic. No, it's a good point. I think, you know, when you kind of start reflecting on that, there's a couple of things and I'll have this amazing Head of People and Culture that worked with me and said to me… You know, Ryan, in businesses, you have people part of your team for a reason, a season or a lifetime. And all of those are fine, you know, and sometimes we take it personally when a team member might move on at a certain time or that someone might stay with you for the whole journey, but all of it's the same. But sometimes, you know, you've got to realise, at what part of the business that you're kind of good at. And I think I've done that well at times, and I've done it also poorly at times as well, and I'll talk about poorly in a minute. But I think, just trying to go inwardly sometimes around, what is my superpowers in essence, right? What am I actually good at, you know, and that obviously helps you kind of build a great team around you as you go along. And it's, everyone talks about, it's the people that you surround yourself, but really kind of understanding what you're good at, is critically important. And also, what stage…

[00:06:26] Sean Steele: What is it that you were best at?

[00:06:27] Ryan Trainor: I think, for whatever reason, and maybe growing up in markets with mom and dad growing up or whatever, it's around people and I think very early on, I feel like entrepreneurship is almost a creative industry. You know, you've got a blank canvas and you paint something and part of that creative process is that it's how you articulate it to team members and shareholders and customers. And I feel like, for whatever reason, being able to clearly articulate a vision, and then I think it's around how do you start aligning values to that, and what's that kind of purpose and cause related? Because I think a lot of people define themselves by what they do, you know? So, the responsibility of a leader or an entrepreneur is how do I build an organisation that helps define people to their communities and a whole range of other areas. So once, you know, getting that kind of momentum around belonging, a really clear vision and obviously, you know, how does it attach to their own personal values. And I think once you've got that, you're able to attract an inordinate amount of great people that may not necessarily be all the same. And I'll talk about outliers later, but you can kind of get this beautiful momentum towards kind of creating some amazing things if you can kind of get those ingredients right along the way, but knowing that I'm kind of a bit better at the lead out guy of the Peloton, I'm very good and then at some stage I need to kind of fall back into the pack because I just don't have the skills to kind of go beyond a certain distance I feel.

[00:08:10] Sean Steele: Is that also, look, I remember, I don't know if you ever did this, as you're going through your career and you're doing different kind of team development things, I remember a system, I think it was called TMP. Can't quite remember, but I remember like, there's always, it's usually four boxes or whatever this was, I don't know, six or eight or something, but the yellow hats or the yellow people were the ones exactly as you said, really good at creating energy with a group of people towards something clearly being able to articulate to it, be able to story tell, bring out and bring people into that energy. But once it gets moving, they are not great at maintenance. They're not really good at often making sure all the tiny pieces are together and they can also get a bit bored. And so, they can also start to get a bit annoying or start, you know, they need to move on to the next project or the next thing, which might be a different business or it might just be a new initiative, but something that allows them to really harness that energy. It sounds like there's a lot of that...

[00:09:09] Ryan Trainor: Yeah, I think it is… go on mate. Sorry…Yeah, I think also it's like, you've got to know when it's your season, you know, and I think that if you clearly kind of understand that, but I think the trap, I guess the trap for young players and all of this that I've found myself in is that I think what happens though is you can lose sight of what you're good at sometimes as well. So, if you've had success, you know, often you start assigning genius to what you've previously done, and that generally means that for future ventures, what can happen is you start overreaching and thinking about what you can kind of impact. So, what sometimes gets people to…

[00:09:53] Sean Steele: What are examples of that? 

[00:09:54] Ryan Trainor: So, you know, if I look at say, Franklin Scholar at that stage as well, like there's a whole lot of things that have got to go right in a business. And I think people start under valuing luck, timing, you know, there's a whole range of other things. And I've probably had even better businesses that have been not successful at certain times as well. So often when you start another venture. If you're not grounded again in understanding where your skills are, you start overreaching I feel sometime and starting to think you can influence areas that you can't. So, I think you'll find often a lot of entrepreneurs who that have been successful, there's been some statistics actually out of Harvard and things around second time entrepreneurs if they've been successful and not being as successful in the second as well. And I've known a lot of mates to actually do a bit of dough along the way as well, including myself. So, I think, I guess just kind of wrapping that up in a bow is that, you know, having some introspection around, you know, what you're good at and understanding at what season you're at, you need to continually do that along the way, otherwise you start overreaching and start kind of finding yourself tripping over yourself in future ventures as well.

[00:11:09] Sean Steele: So therefore, for you personally, what were the areas that you knew, and maybe this sort of grew over time, but the areas that you shouldn't dabble in or that aren't your strengths, and therefore perhaps the areas that you tried to outsource or resource with better strength as early as possible because you knew there was a danger of you having to make decisions, or if you were the smartest person in the room on that thing, that was going to not be probably good for the organisation or potentially good for you?

[00:11:33] Ryan Trainor: Yeah, I think it's just managerial rhythm and that consistency, you know. I think that, very early on that ideation and getting people together and that vision and getting your first customers and that kind of creative and boldness at the start, I mean, it's infectious, right? And then as you go on, having people and it's like having, it's being optimistic, which is what the job of the entrepreneur is, right? Like if we weren't optimistic, we would never do what we do. Like it's ingrained in us. But along the way you need to get someone to create rational optimism. And I think that that rational optimism is around bringing people in that are more focused on detail, that will challenge you, not just getting a bunch of executioners around you, because what happens is, as you're growing, you know, you start bringing these great people that execute, but you start lacking the thinkers. So, what happens when the business starts to get into a little bit of trouble, or there's some friction that's coming, there's too many executioners, not enough thinkers, and everything starts to fall back on, onto you, the Founder, right? So, I think it's being thoughtful along that. And, you know, again, I'm talking those lessons, but I'll still muck it up. I reckon most of the times as well, but it's being super conscious around how you build those people around you as you go.

[00:13:13] Sean Steele: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And I know for myself that I absolutely don't naturally see risk. As you said, I'm optimistic. I'm really good at creating optimism in others. And therefore, I assume things are probably going to work out better than they might, and it's super valuable when you've got someone who's mind you respect, who will challenge you and go, yeah, but what about this? What about this? Do we have any data? And what about the evidence? And have we considered that? And you're like… it's kind of annoying that you're telling me all of that, but I know it's actually going to make a better decision in the long run, whichever way we go. So, when you are building these organisations, Ryan, do you start always with a sort of step back strategy in mind, or does it just happen naturally? Like, how do you think, how have you thought going into each one about how long you'd be in that venture, or were you sort of in a hurry to build your way out of it, or just talk to me about that?

[00:14:00] Ryan Trainor: Yeah, I think it's, there's some ventures that you join that you're their… you know, Fortress is one of them, which is, if anyone hasn't seen them, they're in Melbourne, Sydney. It's just an amazing and it's really… John Satterlee and Adrian Giles that are driving that, but it was an initial concept. So, you kind of bring together and help formulate some of the vision towards it. They've done all the work. But then, I was able to bring in some great people within the network to be able to help kind of get things going. So, I mean, if I had just more businesses like that, that would be fantastic. And then there's the ones that you kind of start from scratch, and I think it's finding your way through, but there gets to a certain stage where I think you just know intuitively you just don't enjoy it anymore. It just becomes harder. You know, it feels like you're swimming against the tide and now you start questioning yourself and you start losing that joy in it. And I think it's trying to find out before that. And then in just ensuring that you're getting people that you can have in a position of succession as you're walking through, so good people around it. And I think I've done that well at times, but I've also done that really poorly at times. And I think when it's poorly, you start letting down other people because you start to buckle and say, oh, this is not for me, but you don't have a plan B. So, I think if people are a little bit more intentional around thinking, what is my superpowers, what can I give most to this, not feel guilty for that and then start thinking a little bit more way out, and start bringing and surrounding yourself with good people around succession. I think that's ultimately the way to go.

[00:15:50] Sean Steele: So, let's say, and I'd love a practical example, if you could give me one. But in circumstances where you have identified somebody who you think will be a good successor, do you tell them, when do you tell them? Like, you know, some people, it's a sensitive area where some people are like… Oh, well you can't really tell them because then they've kind of assumed it, and then what if they stopped performing and then you've promised something you can't deliver it. On the flip side, I've seen lots of really good people leave because actually nobody said… Hey, by the way, do you realise, like, you're the next person to be right. Like, that's actually how the business is trying to help you build. How have you approached that?

[00:16:23] Ryan Trainor: Yeah. I think, probably my best one was with Franklin Scholar. I kind of had two guys that we founded the business with. One was, like an ex-PwC auditor, South African, half glass full, a little bit older than me. And I guess you remember each day that Ryan, you know, we've got to be watching this, you know, and then I had Damien who was a chemical engineer, was a COO Exxon. He came on as my COO. He was on the retail of ExxonMobil. And then I went around to his house one day, when we're just talking about is he the right guy. And I actually came through the backyard and I looked at his clothesline and his pegs were colour coordinated and perfectly symmetrical, and I just thought, this guy is ultimately everything. And they … full DNA, and they were just the perfect bookends, and they allowed me to be me, so I could be out there kind of selling the vision and really driving the business forward where I had two great catches. And then ultimately, you know, my, I guess, influence on the business started to reduce, so then you had two really capable people that could kind of carry the business forward. So, I think that was a great example of that. But then other times when you're just going through massive growth, you know, your pants are on fire, and all you're doing each day is just putting out fires and you're just trying to execute those luxuries of thinking forward sometimes just get pushed to the back burner. And I think that's where I'll probably let myself down at certain stages is when I'm not actually taking my own advice, which I'm chatting about here, is I'm not being mindful for that. I'm just too focused day-to-day. I'm just right in it and all-consuming and hand to mouth every single day and not taking that step back, you know, go to that cafe, think about, in 12 months’ time, if this was A) not going to go well, what would I do different now? If I'm not the leader, who's going to step into this place? And keeping yourself honest around that. And when I've done that, I think I've had great results. And when I haven't done that, you know, I feel like I've let myself down and others at times.

[00:18:50] Sean Steele: What about the, stepping back from ultimately sort of the full control also can expose people to other financial risks and that can be, you know, pretty scary. Founders you may have built a company to a certain size and they still are the one in the bank account every day. They're still monitoring the use, that’s the very first thing they do as soon as they get to work, they check their bank balance and they approve all invoices and so on. And then they might find a really capable leader, but they're a bit uncomfortable about giving them sort of financial responsibilities. How have you structured like financial aspects of your business to ensure some sustainability and some comfort for you, even when you stepped back, say, you know, onto a board role and now you've got managers in place?

[00:19:30] Ryan Trainor: Yeah, I think, that is one of my weaknesses. And then, probably people that have been in businesses with me at certain times would probably attest to that as well. But I think, the most critical person that I need in a business is someone with a strong financial acumen to just ensure that the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed. And you know, it's so important. And also, someone that, you know, the challenge is and people I hopefully might be able to resonate with this is that, it's bloody hard. And you can't be good at everything. So, definitely it's the people that are around you, but as you're growing, you're fundraising, you're doing a whole range of different things and the optimist in you thinks that the times will continue, but if you think about the last 12 months, you know, and Founders, and I'm sure a lot of them would have been on this podcast is that, it's got really tough, right? And part of that is that, you know, because of our optimism, sometimes we might have single points of failure from a funding perspective. You look at your investment, your investees and they were there for a great moment there, but are they the right people for the next? And, you know, so I think, just having somebody with a really strong acumen in that financial seat, it's the single most important thing. And again, when I haven't done that, things haven't gone as well. And when I have had that, I can see that it's just been a huge reason why there's been success.

[00:21:15] Sean Steele: That's interesting. So, on that same vein, what about, you know, one of the things that you mentioned was, you know, sometimes when you're just in the thick of it and you're executing, sometimes it can be a little bit hard to see, I always think, you know, you can't see from outside the box because you're inside the box. And so sometimes you need those different perspectives from somebody who's not attached. They're not involved. There's no emotional connection. They make it for you. But you can get some external perspective. How did you, did you have the same mentors along the way? Did you set up advisory boards? How did you try to address that issue for yourself to ensure that you could get perspective as you build these different businesses?

[00:21:56] Ryan Trainor: Yeah, I think, it's interesting. I think people come into your life at the right times. I've been really fortunate around that. I've been part of some great groups like the entrepreneurs organisation, and later on for the last 10-11 years YPO there as well. So, you've got some people that you've got shared experience with. I've had some amazing people around me. You know, Richard Forbes, Mark Horton, Mark Manther, these types of people that have been there with the good times, and the challenging times there as well, and they are very humane in how you deal. So, it's not just the advice, it's the relationships that you build along the way, because ultimately things can go wrong. You know, and I think if you think about just at the start of the show you talked about how many people get over to eight figures and so on. Like how many people don't get to a $100,000 or $200,000. It's enormous and you need every single thing to go your way. And I think when people see a lot of the stuff that the humble brags on LinkedIn and listening to speakers. You know, it is hard and there is going to be… and the likelihood of success as much as we don't want to realise that because we’re as the Founders, can be high. So, the things that we can control around the people you surround yourself with, the teams that you build, the areas that are within our control just become so important. And I think, you know, that's, like I said before, is that, once you take your eye off that and you start thinking that you can overreach and influence areas outside of that, is where generally life seems to get a big chair and slap it over your face, you know. So, it's like keeping that at the core of you is just knowing that, you know, I think as I'm getting older, maybe I'm getting a little bit more sceptical is that, I need to change my thinking even now, even when I'm on boards. And so rather than what are the things that can go right from here, but if we're sitting in this chair, we're having a conversation in two years times, what could possibly go wrong? And then starting to work backwards of that, and I think, we don't train our mind as entrepreneurs to do that well enough. We're always got the half glass full. But I think if, either getting someone around us or purposely trying to change our mind around that can really be a great way to start mitigating some of the more obvious risks as you're growing.

[00:25:36] Sean Steele: That makes a lot of sense. And one of those big risks is ultimately, I mean the concept of work-life balance, I'm not sure is something that many Founders have ever found. I don't think it's something, it's certainly my experience, not something that you get to like… Oh, I've got work-life balance now and everything is perfect. It's like this constant pendulum where you're trying to push certain things around to create the right space. But one of the consequences of one of the big risk, as you said, is what are some of the things that can go wrong? And of course, building not only one business and being front and centre in it, but building multiple businesses can take a real personal toll. Can you talk to me about how you approach that, how that's sort of turned out? Because I know that it's part of the transition also to your podcast. Can you share a bit about that?

[00:26:25] Ryan Trainor: Yeah. It's really interesting as you kind of look back on your journey. We wrap ourselves in our identity a lot, I think. You know, I think, I'm Ryan, the entrepreneur, and we need to be able to keep up this facade. And a lot of us aren't really talking about some of the challenges that we're actually facing along the way. And, you know, we read a lot of the success stories and I think anyone who's successful as an entrepreneur deserves every single sentiment. And sometimes people are even demonised around all of that, but you know, people have worked really hard to be able to achieve some of that. So, I think, for me is, over a long period of time is that, I don't know, I wasn't personally kind of listening to the signs a lot and, you know, I feel such a deep responsibility, which is something for me within, my people, shareholders along the way. So, you kind of continue to push yourself and I think a lot of Founders would feel that, and you might be starting to get signs physically. I mean, I've been running at it for 30+ years now and I think over a long period of time that can erode your health. And there's little signs that kind of start to pop up that we all need to be conscious of…

[00:27:59] Sean Steele: So, what sorts of signs were you seeing, Ryan…?

[00:28:03] Ryan Trainor: I think when it got to the end for me, I got to the point where I was vomiting in the morning just through anxiety. I probably hit nearly chronic fatigue. And I probably didn't seek help or was vulnerable enough to kind of talk about that. Because I think as we grow up and maybe it's, I'm a little bit old school, but it’s you're taught like, these are the times that define us. ‘If it was easy, anyone would be doing it, right?’ You know, like, grind, hustle, work hard. And for me, I believed that and I think to be really honest, there's no such thing as balance as an entrepreneur, there's counterbalance, right? But in that counterbalance, you need to have care for yourself, and you start to need to look after it. And you also need to ask yourself back to that identity; why I'm actually doing, what am I doing? Am I doing it just to feed my ego or am I doing it because we'll continue to say we're trying to provide freedom of choice in a better life for our family? But is it really that, and then how am I showing up at home and am I actually being that person, , that I am telling the world I am at home, but I'm really not? So, I think it kind of gets to this point where, you know, you take a stock take of yourself, and I just got to the point where I probably let a lot of people down in my business, even shareholders, because I continued to push when I shouldn't have. But that's been an amazing learning for me, and one, now that I feel kind of passionate just chatting about a little bit more because I think a lot of people are going through things and they shouldn't get to the stage where probably I got to, so, it's like, what can we do now to help kind of prevent that? Because we live a very fortunate life, mate. Like, I think about how fortunate I am for the experiences I've had, the people I've worked with, the businesses that I've created. And the reality is, is you can't generally create anything of a magnitude without going over and trying to do an extraordinary amount of work to get to that. It's just the sum total doesn't add there, but it doesn't mean that you have to kill yourself at the end of it, so you don't even enjoy it. So, it's like, it's like a hill start. How do you kind of get it just right so I don't fall down the hill, you don't crash and you're not over accelerating at the same time.

[00:30:52] Sean Steele: I think that's so articulately put and really personal, and thank you for sharing that. You know, I used to see in YPO, which I left about three years ago, but I used to say a lot of people, you know, just paraphrasing up front, you sort of said, you know, we can ascribe genius, we can kind of basically fall in love with our own bullshit. And I think one of the lines of bullshit that many entrepreneurs do fall into, and CEOs and senior executives is, that I'm doing this for my family and they aren't paying attention to the signs of the family and what's actually happening to the relationship, and are they connected with their children and what about their friends who never see them anymore, and so on. And it can be so blinkered that like, everything will be fine, I'm going to have all this amazing time to spend with all these people when I get to X, you know, some kind of an exit or some bonus or some whatever, and then all of a sudden they eventually get there and they've been totally focused on the finest and they sort of look around, and I just imagine this sort of, you know, western, just like desert saloon coming out of the saloon bar and it's just tumbleweeds and whistling in the wind, they're like… Oh, right, actually, no one's there, and now I'm here on my own and I've had a lot of consequences and a lot of carnage that I couldn't see because I was so convinced on my own bullshit that that was actually going to create something else. And so I love the idea of you asking yourself that hard question, you know… well, if that's what I'm trying to create, what is the experience? Who am I bringing home? How am I actually being with me? And is that, you know, there's no perfect balance. But a constant check in, and perhaps some people who you've given permission to also call you out on stuff, who you do trust and who are outside the box to go; Hey, if you see me doing X, Y, Z, I probably need you to tell me because I may not see it… might also be helpful. So, it sounds like that's a part of also your new podcast. So, you've obviously gone pretty deep into this in the last 6-to-12 months.

[00:32:55] Ryan Trainor: Yeah. It was interesting because when I was experiencing that, I was listening to all the podcasts, you know, like Huberman, and Sinclair and I'm just trying to work out all the health and you're hearing biohacking and all this rubbish and you know what I mean? And the perfect day and everyone's going minute by minute and it's like, holy shit, come on, let's just pull all this in just a little bit. So, I was like, I was just thinking, I just chatting to mates and friends and colleagues and he's like, you know, how do you kind of demystify it, but also kind of make the complex simple in all of this that you don't need a PhD to kind of work through it? So, on the first episode, I actually was quite open and I brought on my psychologist that I actually had reached out to, to try and ensure that I was keeping myself honest when I was really finding the struggle. And I think part of it was, I was just continually saying to myself, am I really feeling this? Am I manufacturing this? Am I giving myself a trap door? And so, you know, then people are like, well, why would I ever speak to a psychologist? And it's like, well, you've got someone who's not judging you that you can actually start to work through and create a framework for…So, I just try and tackle all the different issues that we're all kind of going through, but try and put it in simple speak and, I'll just say one point, it was really interesting the other day, just on the other thing and you know what, I'm like Sean, so just kind of let it go all over the shop, but it was around, how we turn up. And I think that was one of the big kind of realisations for this. And I was just chatting to this guy and it was a really interesting conversation. He goes; well, I've got three teenage daughters at the moment and beautiful girls and, you know, I feel like I have spent the time with them. Have I always been present when I've been spending physical time with them? Probably not at certain times because your mind's racing all the time. But I asked this kind of really interesting question, which I think is good for work and for home. It's like, how would you judge the environment at the moment? And you know, it's like… Oh my God, there's a shit fight at the moment. Everyone is kind of going for everybody, you know, teenagers and stuff like that. And I said… Oh God, sometimes it's 5 out of 10 in the house. And he nails me and he goes; look, mate… he goes, that means you're showing up is a 5 out of 10... He goes; at the end of the day, if you're letting other people affect you, then you're taking it beyond your control. You need to turn up each day is a 10 out of 10, And I thought, that's a really interesting kind of point, both for business. Like if you go back into your company at the moment, you say, if I was going to judge the culture at the moment, what would it be out of 10? And it's a direct reflection of how you're showing up. And I feel like the question, if people are actually thinking about themselves, their home and burnout, just ask yourself that question is like, no, how would I question at a 10 or judge how my house is at the moment? And generally, that's the number of how you're turning up. And if it's really low, it just means that something may need just a little shift or just being a little bit more conscious around all these things as well.

[00:35:57] Sean Steele: Well, it's funny that you say that. I wish I could remember the name of this book. I've looked for it so many times on Google and I cannot remember the name or who the author was. But for me, it was like completely jarring because I had had that experience where I was, you know, if you think about when you're going to work, whether you're a Founder or CEO or a Senior Exec or whatever, and you actually often get to feel really successful at work, you know, if you're good at building teams and you're good at aligning people and you're achieving outcomes, you come away from that feeling really good. And then of course you like the family gets the leftovers of that. And the challenge in this book was… well, if you take your job as a CEO, if you're so serious about it, well, isn't the most important team in your whole world, your family? Why haven't you adopted the position of CEO of your family? Why haven't you got a vision? Why don't you have shared values? Why don't you have meetings that are fun, but that are interesting and where people are developing themselves and sharing ideas and dealing with problems that come up. And it literally just set off a lightning bolt in my head, and I was like, that is so true. I was putting all of my energy into work and being good at that, but actually not in to being a good leader/participant/contributor to my household, and it really transformed, I was very lucky that I heard it quite early, transformed my focus to go…Actually, that's a more important team than even the work one. So probably, and to your earlier point, it's not like I've ever got that perfect, you know, you oscillate and you have periods and you know, shit goes wrong and all sorts of things break and don't work, but it's certainly a great reality check to think about those two things side by side rather than just thinking about work and then, oh, there's these other people over there that, , sort of get the leftovers.

[00:37:43] Ryan Trainor: Yeah. It's kind of sometimes at work, they get the best of you, aren't they really? Like, you know what I mean? Because you're on show, right? And the customers and I, I think I've been with Rach, my wife now for 30 years. I'm very lucky. She was the one who gave me a kick up the bum. I've had more stool tests than most human beings. And she keeps on bloody telling me, go and get tested, have a blood test, do this and do that. And then finally push me when I wasn't well, but no, she's seen the worst of me. You know what I mean? And that's not…it's a partnership, all of this, you know? And I think that's the other thing is, I might be doing this part of it, but the most important thing in our life really is our family and kids, like that's the legacy, isn't it? You know what I mean? And, you know, we get lost in the other things as well because it builds our ego, right? Like, I mean, for years, I was the young entrepreneur, you know what I mean? I'm 50 now and I'm still probably hanging on to that just a little bit. I'm not the young entrepreneur anymore. But you build all these little bits of identity and you keep kind of feeding it and you start losing grip on reality around all these things. But anyway, I think that a lot of people becoming more aware of that. But I think, sometimes you just got to sit down and have a good conversation with yourself and keep yourself honest and have people around you that can kind of call you out as you mentioned as well, Sean, is just the way to go.

[00:39:05] Sean Steele: I love that. Yeah, I remember the, I can't remember the name of that, it was an article or a book, maybe in the last couple of years, I think during the middle of COVID where somebody, a nurse - a palliative care nurse had sort of done all these interviews, had been just with people terminally ill or going to die, you know, at their bedside and she wrote a book of like, basically what they told her were their biggest regrets. She's like, not one out of thousand people, whatever it was said, wish I had worked harder, wish I had made more money. But every single one of them, priorities one, two, and three were like, didn't spend enough time with friends. Had these broken relationships that I never got around to mending because I just thought that always be time. And it was always those people. And that's really hard when you are, if you're young and you're still sort of growing and you're hustling and trying to make it all work. It's hard to remember I think sometimes.

[00:39:51] Ryan Trainor: It is.

[00:39:52] Sean Steele: Those are the people that you actually want to share the success with later on.

[00:39:55] Ryan Trainor: There are the cycles of life too, we all transition through different times of our life through all of this as well. So, I mean, you know when you are younger, that naivety is what gets you through, right? Like if you knew what I knew or you knew now, you probably wouldn't start, right? So, you need all of that, but also then it's, if you could kind of, when you're a little bit younger, just… you know, we all need purpose, don't we? I mean, at the end of the day, we can't be all one way the other way as well, and there's this guilt that sits in, and if anyone's listening today, it's like, no, everyone's got crap going on. If anyone is out there, you're looking at it and going; oh, they've got it right. They've got it perfect. I can tell you now, they don't. And we're all trying to work through all of this. So, the other thing is don't try and compare yourself to others or these types of things, and we're going to miss it. I'm going to get home. I'm going to bloody have it out with the kids at some stage, or I'm going to kick the dog… No, I won't. I won't be doing that. You know what I mean? It's kind of all of that side of things still kind of comes into it just like being super conscious of it and go, okay, right. I'm going to try and be a little bit better tomorrow as well. But I think, you know, sometimes we can put ourselves in a massive guilt trip as well. We're all trying to do our best. You know what I mean? We're all starting to drive companies. We're starting, we employ people where we've got massive visions, we're trying to get balance at home, we're trying to keep ourselves fit and healthy all the way through. And it's all these competing forces, but at the end of the day, as you're kind of getting older and you look back, you know, as Rach says to me… you'd be kind of disappointed how much other people really think about you. All this value of what we're placing on what other people think of us throughout this, that doesn't matter guys. As long as you're staying true to your values and all these types of things. But I think, every day is just a new adventure as we kind of get out there. We're just trying to be just that little bit better than we were yesterday.

[00:41:47] Sean Steele: I think we actually need to, I don't know if there's a, maybe there's a business in this or maybe it's just an idea, but something that you said there really jumped out at me because I've constantly thought, you know, like the concept of, what other people think of you. The weirdest thing to me is that the time in your life where everybody tells you what they really think of you is when you're dead. Like, at your funeral, they come together, and people who've never communicated how they feel about you come together and they say amazing things that put people in tears and all the rest, and I think, can't we manufacture that to happen earlier? Like, wouldn't you want to know those things? Can't we find a way to get those people somehow together earlier so you actually get to hear it, and then die later?

[00:42:28] Ryan Trainor: And the other part of that, Sean, this is on the flip side of this, that they'll come to your funeral. And they go, geez, you know, Sean and Ryan, they're bloody good blokes… and then that's it. Like my dad's nearly 12 years now, and I'm having fleeting memories of him. Do you know what I mean? So, the thing here is like, we're placing all this importance, we're going all over the shot. It's good. But it's just like, you know, we've put all this importance particularly in our careers and these types of things. I think as long as we find that North Star and compass that you have the right values and virtues that are important to you and how you want to reflect in all of that and keeping yourself honest, all this other noise that probably helps determine some of the path sometimes, I think that there is the stuff that can create the cloudiness on the journey of entrepreneurship. It's like you worrying about, oh, what about if I do this or, oh my God… and I'll be controversial, even, you know, and I was the worst for it, you know, like when there's been challenging times, I find it really hard to let people go. I do. But sometimes in a business, you've got to do it. You just got to do it. So, it's all these things that you're contending with and all these emotions that you're going through as well. But ultimately, I think, it's a complex thing, mate. And I think we're always trying to work things out. So, I think anyone who's out there having a real crack at the moment, just kind of deserves all the bloody accolades and support they can get.

[00:44:05] Sean Steele: Ryan, I think, this is a perfect place for us to wrap up today, but I'd really like to acknowledge the way you've just brought a really authentic and vulnerable self to that conversation. Because as you said, lots of people could read your bio or your LinkedIn profile or whatever, and go; ‘This guy is just serial entrepreneur, or he's creating a gajillion dollars and all these jobs and succeeding in everything.’ And what they don't see is the fails, the consequences, the tough parts, the personal impacts, the family impacts and all the other things. And clearly in the last 12 months, that's really hit perhaps a crescendo for you. So, thank you for sharing that. I'm thrilled that you are channelling that into something that's actually in your own investigation of how you've rebalanced things for yourself, that actually you're getting to share that with the world as well through your podcast. Where should people go by the way to check out your podcast?

[00:44:53] Ryan Trainor: Yeah, I mean everyone, you can just find me, Ryan Trainor LinkedIn, I kind of post about stuff and I love writing at the moment as well, but just go to Spotify or to Apple and just search Trainable by Ryan Trainor, or Trainable by RT on Instagram as well. I've got a few little clips there. It's very humbling. I'm trying to chat to no one in Instagram at the moment. I've got to start it from scratch again with all of this type of stuff. But anyway, I think to finish off, it's that it's honest conversations, guys. And I think it's the people that are coming on, just kind of being vulnerable because we're all in this journey together and sometimes it's kind of nice just to know what other people are going through and hopefully people can take one or two things from it and just apply it in their own kind of life as well. But Sean, I really appreciate the chat today, mate. You're doing great things and thanks for having me on.

[00:45:43] Sean Steele: 100% mate. I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. And for our guests, please jump on the ScaleHQ website (www.ScaleHQ.com.au). If you can't remember where this was, you can jump find on any of this typical players, if you liked what you heard, the thing that you could do that would just lighten me up and help Ryan's message get out into the world is actually just share it. Just click the share button, send it to a friend, send it to someone who you go, I know that's actually somebody probably needs to hear this. Maybe they're going through something and they can't see the signs. Or maybe they want to build multiple versions, multiple businesses, and they've got some stuff that they can learn from Ryan. Either way, we're super grateful for any feedback or sharing that you do, and we'll see you all next week. Thank you again so much, Ryan.

[00:46:21] Ryan Trainor: Cheers, mate.

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